"Hammer Blows" at start of Mahler 6th

[maximusmanc]

Looking at the score of Mahler's 6th symphony. The work starts with repeated forceful staccatos on the low strings, sometimes referred to as the hammer blows of fate? However, I have heard two performances previously (and also forthcoming one by BBC Phil in Manchester) where the number of those repated "blows" is reduced . I think my CD with Boulez plays it faithfully (and very forcefully). Has anyone else come across the practice of arbitrarily choosing the number of blows at the start of the symphony? Was this something that Mahler had left to the conductor in charge of a performance?

Would be interesting to know. Thanks.

[Jeremy Marchant]

I've never heard the first four notes being described as hammer blows.
The hammer blows appear in the finale: at the end of the exposition (bar 336), at the end of the first development section (bar 479) and, controversially, just before the coda (bar 783).

The score certainly does not offer the conductor the option to ignore one or more notes in the first bar: it would be a very odd start to a march in 4/4 to begin off the beat. I find it extraordinary - to the point of inconceivable - that a conductor would take such a liberty without the composer's sanction, and can only assume you've heard a second generation recording which carelessly cuts one or more beats.

[maximusmanc]

Hi, thanks for the reply. Just referring back to the OP. I was actually mentioning live performances. And if you have a look at the BBC Philharmonic website, that's where it's mentioned (hammer blows, just twice). They can also be found mentioned on their twitter page. http://twitter.com/BBCPhilharmonic I got the point in the score mixed up though. it was the last movement 3 hammer blows I was mentioning. I have hears it twice performed (and I mean live not CD) by different conductors, different orchestras, with just two blows.

Also, I did mention in the OP that my recording is Boulez (hence nothing to do with secind generation and it is a full set).

But thanks anyway for your comments.

[Jeremy Marchant]

Mahler's sixth symphony was published in Leipzig by CF Kahnt (Nachfolger) in 1906. The score included all three hammer blows. When Mahler received the score, he rectified a number of misprints, made some other revisions - and removed the third hammer blow (for superstitious reasons, it is said). This changes were implemented by the publisher and the score reprinted (also 1906).

In 1910, Mahler decided to reinstate the third hammer blow. However, as the score was not subsequently reprinted by the publisher, this change was never published.

So, conductors have a dilemma: go with Mahler's known final intention (but not sanctioned by appearance in print) or the final published version (which doesn't include Mahler's final thoughts)? That's why I used the word 'controversially' in my first post.

[By 'second generation' I meant a copy of a recording.]

[maximusmanc]

Thanks Jeremy Marchant. It makes sense now. That's helpful. I didn't know about the editions' discrepancies. So Noseda with BBC Phil has chosen to play two blows. I'll be going to see that concert on Saturday.

[Jeremy Marchant]

What makes the conductor's decision harder is that Mahler actually authorised all three versions published in 1906 (I simplified to make the point) - even though they were contradictory!

The other issue - possibly rather more important - which you didn't allude to - is the order of the middle movements. Originally Mahler had the more modern order of putting the slow movement in third place after the scherzo. But, in the second version of 1906, he moved the andante before the scherzo. You can understand why - in some respects, the scherzo is very much more of the same as what has gone before. But, then, may that not be the point?

Mahler had second thoughts about this change, probably in 1906/07 following opportunities he had had to conduct the symphony. Anyone with a CD can experiment with playing the middle movements in either sequence. Personally, I think there is a good reason for preferring one order over the other, but why should I influence you?

It's one of my favourite symphonies - certainly Mahler's best, I believe. Enjoy the concert!

[Florestan]

I'm sure we had a discussion a couple of years ago (when there was tons of Mahler in the proms), which might be worth looking up. Also, there's a piece about it in our features section.

[Philidor]

Originally Posted by Florestan

I'm sure we had a discussion a couple of years ago (when there was tons of Mahler in the proms), which might be worth looking up. Also, there's a piece about it in our features section.

Mahler's Sixth Symphony:hammer of the gods

[haydnguy]

Here is a nice post from Herzeleide about the Mahler 6th:

[ame="http://brightcecilia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6663&postcount=15"]http://brightcecilia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6663&postcount=15[/ame]