Mahler's 4th Symphony

[haydnguy]

A new week might be a good time to start Mahler's 4th. A bit of a surprise after listening to the 3rd. What was Mahler thinking in THIS symphony?

[Florestan]

Now I have some time off I can catch up at last. Phew!

[haydnguy]

Text of the Last Movement, Symphony #4


Heaven's Life
(From Des Knaben Wunderhorn)

We enjoy heavenly pleasures
and therefore avoid earthy ones.
No worldly tumult
is to be heard in heaven.
All live in greatest peace.
We lead angelic lives,
yet have a merry time of it besides.
We dance and we spring,
We skip and we sing.
Saint Peter in heaven looks on.

John lets the lambkin out,
and Herod the Butcher lies in wait for it.
We lead a patient,
an innocent, patient,
dear little lamb to its death.
Saint Luke slaughters the ox
without any thought or concern.
Wine doesn't cost a penny
in the heavenly cellars;
The angels bake the bread.

Good greens of every sort
grow in the heavenly vegetable patch,
good asparagus, string beans,
and whatever we want.
Whole dishfuls are set for us!
Good apples, good pears and good grapes,
and gardeners who allow everything!
If you want roebuck or hare,
on the public streets
they come running right up.
Should a fastday come along,
all the fishes at once come swimming with joy.
There goes Saint Peter running
with his net and his bait
to the heavenly pond.
Saint Martha must be the cook.

There is just no music on earth
that can compare to ours.
Even the eleven thousand virgins
venture to dance,
and Saint Ursula herself has to laugh.
There is just no music on earth
that can compare to ours.
Cecelia and all her relations
make excellent court musicians.
The angelic voices
gladden our senses,
so that all awaken for joy.

Source: wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._4_(Mahler)

[haydnguy]

The last movement of the 4th Symphony was originally supposed to be the last movement of the 3rd. Mahler, however, decided not to end the 3rd with it and wrote the 4th Symphony specifically for the last movement.

[Kuhlau]

Mahler's Fourth Symphony is a wonderful work, and quite possibly my favourite in the whole cycle - excepting, perhaps, No. 10 (as completed by Deryck Cooke). I just can't get over how emotive were the words Mahler wrote on the closing page of his Tenth Symphony: 'To live for you! To die for you!', then Alma's name over the final, soaring phrase. Clearly, a man nakedly in pain and mourning the infidelity of his beloved wife. But I digress ...

For me, the sung finale of the Fourth Symphony only works when a boy treble - not a soprano - sings the lines that haydnguy quoted above. To my knowledge, only Leonard Bernstein used a treble, in his legendary DG cycle recording; hear it, and you'll find the effect enchanting.

In fact, of the six or seven recordings of this work in my collection, Bernstein's is the one I turn to most readily. The way he paces and shapes every line, every phrase, is so powerful that it's brought me near to tears before now. No other performance has ever come close to having that kind of impact on me. And I say this as someone who isn't much of a Bernstein fan. But I lay that aside when it comes to such a devasting interpretation.

FK

[Philidor]

Thank you both very much for that. I've just listened to it right through for the first time -- Haydnguy's my Mahler instructor with visiting lectures from Profs. Herzeleide, Despina41, Chi_town/Philly and now the excellent Dr Kuhlau. It's like a fairy tale with bogeymen hovering in the background. I can imagine the effectiveness of a child singing the final movement, and how a pushy female soprano would ruin it. I'd like to hear the Mengelberg and read the notes he scribbled.

This is the only complete Mahler symphony where we can compare and contrast recordings by the two conductors most closely associated with Mahler's work in his lifetime: Willem Mengelberg and Bruno Walter. Mengelberg sat in the audience in Amsterdam in 1904 to hear Mahler conduct the symphony with the Concertgebouw Orchestra twice in the same concert. He also attended the rehearsals, discussed the work with Mahler, and made copious notes in his score with Mahler's co-operation. Mahler in turn had a very high opinion of Mengelberg's conducting of his music so any recording by the Dutchman must carry a degree of authenticity but with the caveats that need to be applied to that word in this context. Whether what we hear in the "live" concert recording from November 1939 (Archipel ARPCD006) can be said to represent Mahler's own wishes is another question...


Source

[Kuhlau]

If I were you, Philidor, I wouldn't rely too heavily on my thoughts on Mahler (or any other composer, for that matter). I know only what I read and hear, and can make no claim to any in-depth study.

FK

[Philidor]

Originally Posted by Kuhlau

If I were you, Philidor, I wouldn't rely too heavily on my thoughts on Mahler (or any other composer, for that matter). I know only what I read and hear, and can make no claim to any in-depth study.

FK

Ha! And modest with it... :grimlins:

[haydnguy]

I read once where everyone has a different Mahler journey. I kind of believe that after reading so many comments about him/his music.

[Chi_town/Philly]

Originally Posted by Philidor

Haydnguy's my Mahler instructor with visiting lectures from Profs. Herzeleide, Despina41, Chi_town/Philly and now the excellent Dr Kuhlau.

Thanks. I'm definitely a (female dog) for public compliments/appreciation.

Originally Posted by haydnguy

Text of the Last Movement, Symphony #4

Whether this represents "a child's view/vision of heaven" or not has been argued pro (Cooke) and con (Hurwitz). However, for those new to the work, it minimizes the seeming grotesquery of the words when viewed with an understanding of the first person, i.e.: a child who perishes before the grain harvest (presumably of starvation). This alone leads me to side with Deryck on this one.