Alban Berg and twelve tone technique

[Despina41]

Hey, this thread is a good time, count me in! I could stand to get to know the Berg better too.

Misch, you mentioned in passing that you wanted to learn to listen better - I find that's the hard part. Perhaps learning to identify simple trichords by ear? 013, or 016, 025, usw might be helpful?

[Mischa]

Basically I just wanted to hear a superficial idea of what to learn at the beginning of the thread. I'm aware of the fact that my theory knowledge will remain superficial even after lessons, but I want to know for instance

• how to build a quadruple counterpoint, where is this technique still present
• how treated Beethoven his themes. Which are the structural signs for changes in his works?
• I read loads of stuff about the Bach Chaconne, its structure and so on. I want to be able to explain, read and understand it with the score.
• 12tone music? Just based on a row? Serial music? I want to recognize it without reading about it.

These are just a few examples, and of course the answer is: learn it. Though we had all that at the conservatory at least in the basics, I'll have to restart. So - my questions: what would be your agenda given one of you would have to teach me. Where to start? What is definitely over the top given that we meet just once per week for an hour? A sort of golden thread I can use when I contact a student for my little Harmonielehre boot camp.

This is one thing, the other is: I'll certainly take advantage of you both regarding the Berg and certainly a lot of other pieces. I'm more than grateful for your help! I'll start right next week, I'm short of time next week, so it may take some time. But anyhow, I'll post the correspondent part of the music and the according music as a snippet.

Questions which immediately spring to my mind could be:

During his frantic work on the concerto, Berg decided to integrate the Bach choral into the last movement. He asked a friend to send him Bach chorals and a score of the Matthäuspassion. After he decided to use "Es ist genug!", he said to his friend in a surprised way, what a coincidence it was, that the first four tones of the choral are the last four of his row.
Here at the very end you'll hear the transition to the choral

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqbJ9g4DNCs&feature=related"]YouTube - BERG Violin Concerto 2nd movement (1/2)[/ame]

and the choral and its usage itself:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rThdkUL9wkw&feature=related"]YouTube - BERG Violin Concerto 2nd movement (2/2)[/ame]

This choral is integrated into the partially acid atonality and later on used as a sort of underlying cantus firmus for variations. I'm absolutely stunned how the choral is integrated without any cheesy effect. I'd love to learn from an analysis there. How does Berg uses his row to incorporate the choral's harmony?

Other questions for later: scholars praise Berg's transition technique inside of the concerto. Maybe we can take a closer look to some.

And a general question: do both of you nowadays feel the need to use 12ton technique in your works? Seen from a composer's POV, where do you think 12ton is still an essential tool?

And thank you very, very much for your help!

[Mischa]

You're perfectly right, Despina, I'll have to start to practise aural training a bit as well. Another reason why I'll buy a little piano these days.

[Herzeleide]

Originally Posted by Mischa

• how to build a quadruple counterpoint, where is this technique still present
• how treated Beethoven his themes. Which are the structural signs for changes in his works?
• I read loads of stuff about the Bach Chaconne, its structure and so on. I want to be able to explain, read and understand it with the score.
• 12tone music? Just based on a row? Serial music? I want to recognize it without reading about it.

Regarding the quadruple invertible counterpoint: you can find as much as quintuple(!) counterpoint in the finale of the Jupiter Symphony. There must be many examples in Bach.

No idea about the German language literature on such a matter, but some modern counterpoint texts such as those of Kent Kennan and Robert Gauldin deal with invertible counterpoint, though I'm not sure if they cover it to that extent. Possibly the only book devoted almost exclusively to this topic is the rather excellent Double Counterpoint and Canon by the formidable Ebenezer Prout.

Not too sure about recognising serial/twelve-tone music just by hearing it. I generally go along with Schoenberg about his distinction between twelve-tone music and twelve-tone music. For anyone wanting to recognise the row, he probably would have sent them to the music of Josef Hauer.

[Herzeleide]

Originally Posted by Mischa

And a general question: do both of you nowadays feel the need to use 12ton technique in your works? Seen from a composer's POV, where do you think 12ton is still an essential tool?

I use quasi-serial techniques of exploring an idea's potential in a way originated by Krenek but for me found mainly via Stravinsky - rotating hexachords. Such a technique one can find in some of the recent works of the amazing Oliver Knussen.

[Scott Good]

Great!

First, we mustn't forget that composing a piece of music goes much further than just pitch manipulations! I would like to add a couple of other things to focus on why the choral works before discussing the row:

Form: It enters in at just the right moment - well prepared by following a tremendous climax, lots of sequential like passages. The nostalgic factor is more potent here than say doing it near the beginning as well. He takes us to an extreme, a point of no return. In a way, it is the only way to go - something new and powerful and important has to be done after such a build. I guess he new this, and thats why he went looking for a choral (which I find quite intriguing that you say he was well into the piece before choosing to use this material! Perhaps he realized that the music he had composed could not be fully satisfied with only his material...would it work if it was an original choral he composed?)

Orchestration: the clarinets with violin play a very important role. the sound itself of the instruments connects the choral to other parts of the music - in particular, the opening of the concerto. This is not a coincidence.

Also, he prepares the first statement with trombones and tam-tam, creating an ominous mood. This helps give the statement it's special impact. The orchestration filters down, allowing for a focusing of attention to this new material.

These elements are as important, if not more so than any row treatment.

Now, the row itself almost begs to have tonal implications - comprised of 4 triads in a sequence of 5ths, the sound of the row itself leads smoothly to functional harmony. + the whole tone scale motive to conclude the row is precisely how the choral begins (as you stated) - a useful device to connect the ideas as well.

A couple of other things about the row. If you take the first 7 notes, it spells out the melodic minor scale. And lo and behold, this is how the choral begins as well. Also, this characteristic of the row leads it well to scalar melodies, which permeate, alongside triadic and fifths motion to account for the majority of material in the concerto.

And lastly, the whole tone component is not only emphasized in the last four notes of the row, but also in the middle. The connect triads between the "tonal" ones are augmented, and when put together form the other whole tone scale. G Bb D F# A C E G# B C# Eb F.

In other words, Mr. Berg is one smart dude!

(As I had initially suggested, it would be good to compare this to Webern simply to see how unique this kind of structure is, and how very different it can be! But, later with that.)

So, the first instance of the choral is in theme only (solo violin 136). But accompanying the choral are row fragments. The violin 1 and solo play in the whole tone mode, whereas the bassoons play a kind of extended variation of the row (P. F#). The row is left "incomplete", as berg leaves out the F from it's statement. Yet the reason is clear, he saves that tension for the violins as this is the arrival note of the choral opening gesture! He capitalizes on maximum tension and resolution whilst maintaining the row form and choral integrity.

This kind of play between choral and row continue until the full harmonic statement in the clarinets. He passes the melody to the clarinets by using the inversion of the choral primarily in the bassoon, but notes are shared in the solo melody and the accompaniment.

I also love how the bassoon kind of trails off (mm142), with a last little crescendo on the Gb, so distant from the harmony the clarinets (Bb leading to Dmin - nothing at all to do with Gb). This ties the previous "atonal" material across the boundary. Also, the little echo in the violins (Bb C D E) under the A7 chord is also distorting yet relating - using 12tone technique within the context of functional harmony.

I think these few bars are my favorite of the piece. That and the opening of the 2nd movement (bang! - right up my alley!)

At any rate, I hope this helps with some insight into how Berg makes this transition, and why it works in the context of the material. There is of course, piles more to talk about (I am curious about the first and last bars relationship! Check it out. Why does he not end in G? Yet the violin plays the note G over the Bb tonality!?) Very cool.

Also, I'm going to keep looking at the concerto and see what neat things pop up. I am curious as to how this "cantus" is harmonized as well. But, I have a set of parts to make, and this posting is WAY to long.

Oh ya, I would say that I use tone row technique in about %85 of my music. And the majority that doesn't are my jazz/rock tunes. It's not that I feel the NEED in some kind of relating to history way, but simply it works for what I want to say. It developed out of writing many pieces and not feeling entirely satisfied with how the material and form were working. As I stated before, the most interesting element of this composition technique that intrigues me is that it can relate melodic and harmonic ideas within the context of itself! It can generate it's own function with incredible flexibility.(not always 12 btw. I've gone as low as 7 and up to 28!) And, each work uses it in different ways, although as I have been at this game for a while now, certain ideas are starting to re-surface again and again.

[Mischa]

Thank you so much, Scott & Herz, for all your relentless efforts! I'll work my way through your analyses with the score in my hands as soon as I'm out of here (I'm on work with my misanthrope boss in my neck. He divorced last friday - this will be a great week!).

Should I'm not be able to return early enough tonight, than I'll reproduce it tomorrow. So please don't see a missing quick respond as a lack of interest, Scott! It's quite the exact opposite, I learned a lot about some issues in the concerto I was pointed to in this thread already!

Simply fantastic, that you take your time! I'm really looking forward to more - for the day, we reach lecture 2, I uploaded the score of the Webern (you meant the Variationen for orchestra, not for piano, right?)... Music follows.

[Mischa]

"I guess he new this, and thats why he went looking for a choral (which I find quite intriguing that you say he was well into the piece before choosing to use this material! Perhaps he realized that the music he had composed could not be fully satisfied with only his material...would it work if it was an original choral he composed?)"

Absolutely, the complete music seems to aim for the choral. Given Berg's superstition he must had been really surprised about the coincidence of the four notes. Many of his friends (as well as scholars) claim this choral is the sign of his own death anticipation (similar to Bach's & Brahms' last chorals or Mahler's "Lied von der Erde"). Who knows, his letters of that time don't show anything like this, quite the reverse, he was full of ideas for new projects, e. g. a TV production of Wozzeck (now that would had been something!).

"Orchestration: the clarinets with violin play a very important role. the sound itself of the instruments connects the choral to other parts of the music - in particular, the opening of the concerto. This is not a coincidence."

Interesting, that you mention the clarinets! Taking a closer look to their role in the concerto, they play a really pivotal role, be it in the Ländler or at the end, when the clarinets play the choral for the last time like a pitiful funeral band.

Please let's take a look at the very ending today: solo strings and finally the solo violin play the row or its derivate like cascades starting in bar 223. At least the pattern is rowlike: triads followed by upwards whole tones. But it doesn't generally follow the minor - major - minor - major - pattern of the row in these 5 passages. Has that any meaning concerning the row?
(Talking about favorites - this is mine: these string cascades with the brass downwards passage flowing into an almost perfect G harmony and finally in the last quote of the muted trumpet.) What do make out of the brass in this section starting in bar 223 - any relation to the row? And how is the last choral quote of the clarinets in this passage harmonized?

This passage is btw. the part where analyses go wild ("soul of the girl reaching heaven", "portrait of his own death"). Easy to consider the concerto tone poem - what do you make out of it? Do you think the piece depicts the life and death of Manon that literally or just in its atmospheric conception with its gloomy dance and so on?
(Talking about speculations and analyses - another study claims mostly based on Berg's leaning towards numbers (in this case 10 and 23), that this concerto is palimpset-like a hidden memory of two pivotal affairs he had.)

Just as a final remark: Manon Gropius was not just a girl family Berg knew, she was a really prominent figure in the intellectual life of Wien: being promoted by her mother (mostly in that Alma-Mahleresque way of being as obnoxious as possible), praised as her only non-Jewish child and more or less promised as wife to a much elder Austrian politician, she is decribed in quite many works of authors for instance. Her death was received as a shock in these circles.



Your little lections about the concerto mean a lot to me, there're a lot of passages which I can hear differently now, it sharpens my understanding towards this music. Priceless for me!
Just in case you want to show 12tone basics parallely, here's the [ame="http://www.brightcecilia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1438"]appropriate thread[/ame] about the Webern Variationen.

[Scott Good]

Ok,

More secrets are being unveiled. But, the proverbial can of worms has been opened, and all kinds of things about this concerto are spilling out, including more invention in the row itself.

I need to find a few things first. But, on my first quick investigation of the ending, it surely is all connected to row forms, appearing in sequence. The brass interact in a variety of ways with the material of the row + each other and within themselves + several row forms are co-existing at different speeds + other material is being stated and imitated (and this is what I need to investigate before I can fully understand what is going on! i need to go through the entire piece to understand the ending - i need to find the other borrowed material).

More soon - but might take a few days to untangle this web. But please, any other insights or places to look would be helpful. I think you know this piece better than I.

Scott

btw, i am very happy to be doing this. score study is something i always do to keep the mind fresh and active and most of all, curious. I was working on Wozzeck! But this is much easier to digest (although Wozzeck is much closer to my heart). Wozzeck is much more freely composed, as it seems so far that this concerto is quite rigorous in it's row technique.

[Mischa]

Thanks for all of your work! Today two analyses of the concerto arrived - taking a little glimpse into them makes me confident, that most of my questions will be answered. On the other hand, I'll need a lot of time to pave my way through them. Abstract stuff in foreign language! Let's do it this way: let's start with the Webern next, and the day I have the feeling I found the answers for this thread, I'll write a longer reply here and try to point out the answers. It's certainly easier for you, plus I'll learn a lot of additional basics in the Webern thread to get the Berg concerto. What do you think?

If you really like to interprete scores, I'd love to hear your analyses on a lot of other music! I'll gather some shorter pieces including the scores and post them some day. Maybe you want to take your pick then - from shorter Debussy's to Scelsi!