If you don't play piano, why not learn?

[stephen w]

Originally Posted by SchubertGuy

I have had piano on my "to-do" for almost a year and a half now. It would (WILL!) be fun to get back into it again.

Good luck! It's a wonderful project, when you get going keep us posted on your progress.

Bearing in mind that almost anything can get in the way of piano practice, (hoovering, shopping, cooking, phoned by daughter, arranging car insurance, reading, putting photos on BC, ironing, feeding and reading to kids), in the short window between waking & leaving the front door for work, it's a miracle that any amateur adult makes any progress, yet we do. Hurrah for the part-time amateur adult musician!

[Philidor]

Originally Posted by stephen wainman

Hurrah for the part-time amateur adult musician!

I know someone who knew one of the Amadeus Quartet (how's that for hearsay name-dropping ) who said (the AQ guy) that he preferred playing with amateurs. He was fed up with professionals treating music like a job, scraping away at the core repertoire with half their attention on something else. You can see it in the faces at (some) London concerts as they gear up to play another Beethoven 5. Look at that man at the back of the strings - he's so obviously thinking about his weekly Tesco shop! It's a big argument for playing more new music, for youth orchestras whose members haven't had time to become cynical, and for the HIP movement digging forgotten scores from libraries. The idea of paying to sit in a hall and listen to the BBC Symphony Orchestra play Bruckner 6 to North London matrons again fills me with gloom. What's the point? Why don't they play something new? Or just shut up?

[haydnguy]

Originally Posted by Philidor

I know someone who knew one of the Amadeus Quartet (how's that for hearsay name-dropping ) who said (the AQ guy) that he preferred playing with amateurs. He was fed up with professionals treating music like a job, scraping away at the core repertoire with half their attention on something else. You can see it in the faces at (some) London concerts as they gear up to play another Beethoven 5. Look at that man at the back of the strings - he's so obviously thinking about his weekly Tesco shop! It's a big argument for playing more new music, for youth orchestras whose members haven't had time to become cynical, and for the HIP movement digging forgotten scores from libraries. The idea of paying to sit in a hall and listen to the BBC Symphony Orchestra play Bruckner 6 to North London matrons again fills me with gloom. What's the point? Why don't they play something new? Or just shut up?

You'd think the "regulars" in the audience would want something different too.

[Herzeleide]

Originally Posted by AlligatorATTACK

What does the notation tool matter if the material derives from your brain?

Software corrupts the (real) sound of instruments that I have in my brain. I don't want to be exposed for so long to ersatz intrumental sounds.

[Chilperich]

Originally Posted by AlligatorATTACK

Wow, sounds a little hostile....

It wasn't meant to be. Obviously, from your most recent remarks, you can play more piano than your earlier ones suggested.

It just strikes me that (if you don't already have it) it's useful to have a certain facility on the piano if you want to compose. Being able to play piano music, vocal scores, etc., is useful from an ear-training point of view, as well as exposing you to music that you might otherwise miss. Unless you want to compose virtuoso piano music you don't need to have a tremendous amount of technique, just the sort of basic ability that I outlined.

That said, I very seldom compose at the piano, but usually away from it.

On another tack (and this is addressed generally), although it's possible to teach yourself the piano, I'd suggest getting a good teacher to help you.

[AlligatorATTACK]

Originally Posted by Herzeleide

Software corrupts the (real) sound of instruments that I have in my brain. I don't want to be exposed for so long to ersatz intrumental sounds.

This is very true, but what about composers that write at the piano? The same thing could be said for them, and there have been a lot of them.

[AlligatorATTACK]

Originally Posted by Chilperich

It wasn't meant to be. Obviously, from your most recent remarks, you can play more piano than your earlier ones suggested.

It just strikes me that (if you don't already have it) it's useful to have a certain facility on the piano if you want to compose. Being able to play piano music, vocal scores, etc., is useful from an ear-training point of view, as well as exposing you to music that you might otherwise miss. Unless you want to compose virtuoso piano music you don't need to have a tremendous amount of technique, just the sort of basic ability that I outlined.

That said, I very seldom compose at the piano, but usually away from it.

On another tack (and this is addressed generally), although it's possible to teach yourself the piano, I'd suggest getting a good teacher to help you.

Thanks for all the advice! Maybe I misinterpreted your tone from before. I completely agree with you on the benefits from a musical analysis, ear-training point of view. I just have to suck it up and practice more even if it makes me feel like a failure at life.

[Herzeleide]

Originally Posted by AlligatorATTACK

This is very true, but what about composers that write at the piano? The same thing could be said for them, and there have been a lot of them.

Obviously there's a difference between an instrument that bears no relation to the instruments of an orchestra, and timbres that are close enough to those orchestral instruments, thus corrupting them. The composer at the piano still must be able to recall the sound of the oboe.

[AlligatorATTACK]

Originally Posted by Herzeleide

Obviously there's a difference between an instrument that bears no relation to the instruments of an orchestra, and timbres that are close enough to those orchestral instruments, thus corrupting them. The composer at the piano still must be able to recall the sound of the oboe.

You are still correct, but on a side note...do you believe that the composer becomes jaded if they are being constantly bombarded with the percussive sounds of the piano or do you believe that the composer can ignore the sonorities completely with little to no influence? If they are influenced even slightly, do you think the composer's piece could be influenced by the attack, sustain, decay and release of the piano in a negative way which would destroy their original intentions? If this is true then is writing from your head the best and most pure way to compose?

Writing straight from your head seems to be the obvious winner, but why then would so many great composers write at the piano? Is it a lack of ear training and skill or is it just a preference? To take things even further, do you think the composer's pieces have suffered and could have been better if they were not written at the piano?

This is a very loaded multi-question but what it all boils down to is...are top notch composers immune to it's timbrel suggestions?

[Chilperich]

As I've already said, I very seldom compose at the piano, but of course I will sometimes play a passage through once it has been composed. To be honest, I've never had much difficulty in ignoring the sonority of the piano, and imagining the relevant orchestral or chamber timbres, and this is also true when I play from scores.

That said, I understand Herzeleide's concerns about MIDI approximations of orchestral instruments. A composer who doesn't regularly play in an orchestra or chamber ensemble, or attend orchestral/chamber concerts and/or rehearsals might eventually have their ears corrupted (indeed, the less their experience of real instrumental sounds, the more quickly this is likely to happen).

I use Sibelius in conjunction with East/West and Garritan Personal Orchestra sounds, but they are always a very poor substitute for the sounds I hear in my head. You might ask why I use them at all; it is purely for other people to audition what I have done (since I do some commercial arranging work), and I always warn them that what they hear will be vastly inferior to "the real thing".

With a lot of editing and manipulation you can get a moderately good result from samples, but it is never anywhere near as good as real players on real instruments.