Amazonfail: don't buy from Amazon this Christmas

[periodinstrumentfan]

Originally Posted by Zeitblom

... At least in Europe nobody invokes God in support of sweat-shops any more.
...

Pls enlighten me on this area as i'm ignorant of certain parts of Western History ?

[Zeitblom]

Originally Posted by periodinstrumentfan

Pls enlighten me on this area as i'm ignorant of certain parts of Western History ?

I'm thinking about the nineteenth-century view that the free market was God's natural order - a sort of Newtonian view of economics as a self-regulating mechanism set in place by divine decree. You will find it in the writings of, for example, the Manchester School in England. Thus to regulate, for example, the employment of children in mines would be to undermine God's purpose and the order of things.

[Stlukesguild]

I'm rather stunned that people still don't think a boycott makes sense sometimes.

A boycott doesn't make sense because a great many of the costumers who frequent Wal-Mart or Amazon or what have you greatly enjoy the discounts that these firms provide... and for a good many of the population these discounts are nearly a necessity. For a boycott to make sense you must convince a large enough portion of the population that the end result is worth their own personal loss... and this is a degree of total empathy for strangers that you are not likely to get. Hell, I work in the public schools and find it is hard enough to sell the public on the idea on paying a larger share of taxes so that all children might receive the minimum standard of education the deserve... and which will benefit the society... the nation... as a whole. And you expect the same public to be up to boycotting Wal-mart or Amazon?

[Stlukesguild]

I don't even think it increases the price significantly to cooperate with a union in a suitable work climate. The notion that a company like Lidl or Amazon is doomed when they have to/are forced/try to act in the common way of the XXIst century is just erroneous.

First of all... Amazon is a US based corporation. The unions are all but dead in the US and when we look at the current problems facing the US auto industry... one of the last bastions of the unions in the US... you can quickly see some of the problems. I say this as someone working in one of the other last mainstays of union employment: public education. Making Amazon a union-run business will not only increase the salaries and place limitations on overtime and quotas... which may not in themselves result in extreme increases in costs... but most importantly it will lead to the issue of health care... health insurance... which is perhaps the single most prohibitive cost of business in the US today. Hopefully we are on the right track toward the establishment of universal health care in the US... but intil that time I can tell you for a fact that my own personal health insurance received through my employer is undoubtedly worth $10,000- $20,000 per year. This is not the sort of cost that employers can swallow without a sizable increase in costs. It is also a cost that leads many employers to look toward moving their corporate offices and facilities to countries where such requirements do not exist. What is the option then? Boycott all products from China, the Philippines, South America, etc...?

[periodinstrumentfan]

Originally Posted by Zeitblom

I'm thinking about the nineteenth-century view that the free market was God's natural order ...

Thanks Zeitblom

[Mischa]

A boycott doesn't make sense because a great many of the costumers who frequent Wal-Mart or Amazon or what have you greatly enjoy the discounts that these firms provide... and for a good many of the population these discounts are nearly a necessity. For a boycott to make sense you must convince a large enough portion of the population that the end result is worth their own personal loss...

Well, let's convince them then. Does it really makes no difference when the public opinion turns against injustice? Then the press, then politicans. As I stated before - it worked with Lidl, they immediately changed their conduct. At least a bit. And so did Amazon for all I know (correct me if I'm wrong there). And others. Companies like Amazon are scared of press coverage and public opinion. And to change their conduct hardly ever breakes their neck or ends in significantly higher prices.

First of all... Amazon is a US based corporation. The unions are all but dead in the US and when we look at the current problems facing the US auto industry...

Of course, but once the global tigers are pasturing on foreign meadows, they have to accept foreign laws. A company like Amazon or Lidl must/should have a works council here. They pay their share of health insurance here, so what's the big deal to cooperate with an union? Over the last years the best our (rather vital) unions whipped out in plant bargainings was the regular inflation-adjusted pay rise (if your dictionary covers terms like "inflation-adjusted pay rise", you know you're on the right site! ). So given the already payed health insurance here - what's wrong with fair play and taking inflation into account? Or providing the established worker's rights like working time, pregnancy leave and so on. Basically all the things you take for granted as a teacher. It won't increase the price a bit.

As I wrote before, Amazon is not on top of my list, though I just can't understand why they want to risk their image and some court proceedings for the sake of the wet dreams of some managers. What could possibly happen, if Amazon workers found an union (again - the health insurance amount is already payed anyway)? That's the Menschenbild of the 19th century. By no means customers have to pay considerably more money. Here.

For being public school teacher - it seems to be the same everywhere. Such a mercy to have privileges ("[...] but until that time I can tell you for a fact that my own personal health insurance received through my employer is undoubtedly worth $10,000- $20,000 per year [...]") payed by those who you educate with Tocqueville. Though they shouldn't naturally have basics like health insurance because... hey - the Chinese...

[Philidor]

@ Mischa - Amazon have at least two warehouses in Germany. Any idea what the union position is there? Here's how Amazon responded when British workers tried to organise:

The union involved in the organizing drive at Amazon, the Graphical Print and Media Union, stated that the company mounted the most aggressive campaign it had ever encountered and accused management of sacking a union activist and committing other unfair practices. “We had never faced this level of serious professional resistance before,” reported the union’s lead organizer, after it had received fewer votes than it had members in a company sponsored ballot. Two industrial scholars who studied the campaign – who, like the union, were unaware that TBG orchestrated the anti-union drive – stated that Amazon had run a “sophisticated” and “classic US-style anti-union campaign, based around five key elements: leadership style, supervisory activity, rewards, coercion and new forms of employee representation” (Kelly and Badigannavar, 2004). But the campaign was not only “US-style” – it was orchestrated by TBG consultant Brent Yessin.

Source

[Herzeleide]

Originally Posted by Stlukesguild

For a boycott to make sense you must convince a large enough portion of the population that the end result is worth their own personal loss... and this is a degree of total empathy for strangers that you are not likely to get. Hell, I work in the public schools and find it is hard enough to sell the public on the idea on paying a larger share of taxes so that all children might receive the minimum standard of education the deserve... and which will benefit the society... the nation... as a whole. And you expect the same public to be up to boycotting Wal-mart or Amazon?

I see what the problem is. US school kids ought to be inculcated with socialist ideas. Such as cooperation, justice and communal responsibility. Get the little tykes early!

[Mischa]

@ Mischa - Amazon have at least two warehouses in Germany. Any idea what the union position is there?

At least one of them has a works council. The main argument of Amazon to prevent works councils had been, that the employees received a little block of shares, which pretty much made them to co-owners of Amazon. A block of shares, an employee could sell then after 365 days of working at Amazons. Not all of them, but 20%. Well...

But as mentioned before, Amazon is not the biggest dot on the union's radar, though recently they hit the headlines in cooperating with the NPD (a right-wing party, something like the left wing of the BNP). Amazon at first refused to correct it, it needed a couple of weeks of menaced boycotts of politicans, journalists, church etc. to stop it.

[Philidor]

Originally Posted by Mischa

At least one of them has a works council. The main argument of Amazon to prevent works councils had been, that the employees received a little block of shares, which pretty much made them to co-owners of Amazon. A block of shares, an employee could sell then after 365 days of working at Amazons. Not all of them, but 20%. Well...

It's a pretty stupid argument! How could a small shareholder-employee deploy his minuscule voting rights at an Amazon shareholders' meeting to negotiate on, say, maternity leave, overtime rates or canteen facilities? Answer: he can't. It's just more smoke and mirrors.

Then there's the issue of temporary workers. Amazon employs an army of them, not just at Christmas. Do they receive shares? I doubt it.

An intriguing aspect of this story is it's quite hard to extract relevant data from Google about Amazon's poor conduct. The company has such a massive search engine footprint, results are saturated by their own sales propaganda. Material about their anti-union activities is out there, but you have to dig. So the sheer weight of Amazon's Google presence tends to mask their union-busting conduct.

I'm also interested in whether those who rely on Amazon for sales - composers, musicians, writers, affiliates, etc - may be unwilling to criticise Amazon, fearing they'll be victimised. It's a legitimate concern. Given Amazon's documented poor behaviour towards vulerable, low-paid employees seeking to engage in lawful trade union activity, it's reasonable to ask whether they might extend that bad behaviour to anyone who criticises them.

So if you're reading this thread and rely on Amazon for your income, think twice before criticising the company without using an anonymous screen name.