John Cage: Hack or Mastermind?

[Balthazar]

I wonder what would happen if people started to judge Cage and/or Boulez by their music, and not their rhetoric.

I guess we'll never know.

[Despina41]

Originally Posted by Balthazar

I wonder what would happen if people started to judge Cage and/or Boulez by their music, and not their rhetoric.

Boulez ftw.


I think Cage is more interesting as a thinker (shall I say musicologist?) than as a composer. Would he be ok with that? maybe.

[some guy]

Cage doesn't care any more, anyway.

But he did decide to devote his life to music, so it's probably as a musician that he should be dealt with.

Unfortunately, his ideas have still not been assimilated or even understood by the larger listening audience (or even by critics and performers).

No one seems to know how to listen. (We know how to listen to baroque and classical and romantic--after being assiduously trained by generations of indefatigable composers and performers, but we still don't know how to listen even to Schoenberg much less Kagel or Cage or Karkowski or Yoshihide. Maybe some day. And then those grandchildren of ours will be incredulous about our inabilities.)

[Tarantella]

Balthazar, I've "judged" Cage by his music, 4'33" for example, and have found it 'wanting'. And music for 'prepared' piano? That idea took off like a rocket with subsequent generations of composers - NOT!! The pianos in question had already been 'prepared' - to be played, and mainly in the workshops of Steinway & Sons!!

I agree with Despina. Cage is more of a philosopher (Adorno without the musical skill!?) than a composer. You get a lot of that these days. Well-read, intellectual and experienced boffins within the confines of the academy - unlike poor old Beethoven who left school at 11- but who are quite unable to reach audiences at all, or to say anything which means anything very much to the culture - except for a tiny, tiny, tiny few. The rest of us remain 'unenlightened', but enjoying the bulk of the art-music repertoire from c1100 to c1960 with great enthusiasm. History has always had its 'curiosities' and I venture suggest that Cage (and a few others I won't mention) is one of them.

[Balthazar]

Originally Posted by Tarantella

4'33" for example

Yeah. The first and foremost of his works, the one that every one of his detractors can summon up at a moment's notice, is the performance-art stunt that serves as the litmus test whereby the genuine music fan is distinguished from the elitist poseur.

I'm not actually the biggest Cage fan in the world myself, but I like orchestral stuff like 101, his electronic works such as Williams Mix, and dizzyingly inventive chamber works such as String Quartet in Four Parts that are very informed by Renaissance music.

And, incidentally, his work and methods were in fact quite influential. Some of the folks here who are music theorists could explain the terms better, but Cage was among the first to use indeterminacy, open composition, aleatory methods, and the like.

[Despina41]

Originally Posted by Balthazar

Yeah. The first and foremost of his works, the one that every one of his detractors can summon up at a moment's notice, is the performance-art stunt that serves as the litmus test whereby the genuine music fan is distinguished from the elitist poseur.

I'm not actually the biggest Cage fan in the world myself, but I like orchestral stuff like 101, his electronic works such as Williams Mix, and dizzyingly inventive chamber works such as String Quartet in Four Parts that are very informed by Renaissance music.

And, incidentally, his work and methods were in fact quite influential. Some of the folks here who are music theorists could explain the terms better, but Cage was among the first to use indeterminacy, open composition, aleatory methods, and the like.

Ok, yes, that string quartet is great. And HPSCHD is interesting too..




But I prefer the less radical Boulez

[Tarantella]

Balthazar, I think I've just been shot (down in flames)! But I do enjoy these discussions and thanks for your valuable input. I'm sure there's more to Cage than meets the eye - he was featured at this year's Salzburg Festival BTW.

I agree with Despina (again???!!) about Cage being "radical". That's where I have a problem. Boulez - I can take or leave him (prefer the latter). But he does great work as a Dirigent.

[Despina41]

Originally Posted by Tarantella

I agree with Despina (again???!!)

heh---we ought to get into a rousing good argument at some point on this board, Tarantella. (Andrew Lloyd Webber isn't worth our time.) Maybe on the subject of musical interpretation or Bach on the piano or something we both feel strongly about.

[Tarantella]

Andrew Lloyd-Webber - pfft! Angela Hewitt and Bach on the piano? Or Richter and Bach on piano - jetzt, das ist gut!!

[Mambo]

At least we've reignited a flurry of activity on Cage, seeing it is almost 3 and a half years between Herzeleide's post and mine.
There are a lot of implications here, as music has evolved. - like - how noisy can music get, before it just becomes that. Lots of folks
who don't like 20th century music call it "just noise" for many odd reasons.
Those 'nothing gained' ideas are a little puzzling, but i may take it to mean that almost anything you hear could start to be interpreted as music, unpleasant as it may be.
So i will never dismiss Cage entirely,and remain open to something i may hear by him again, altho' it may be awhile.
I'll go for the Boulez too above, before Cage.
hope we dont go to Stockhausen next....