Gerard Grisey

[Quijote]

Originally Posted by ReinerTorheit

[...]The whole 'spectral theory' seems to me like an attempt to justify something quite boring with a lot of abstruse academic theory? I really don't care how the notes have been arrived at - they exist only as notes, and have to be good as music. Otherwise it's like a lot of serial music - a load of theorising in support of mediocre dull results.

I didn't find the Grisey piece boring at all, but I think what you said is quite fair, that is to say, in aural reality it shouldn't be of paramount importance how the composer arrived at the notes, though of course that may interesting in itself.
But that is often the problem with exclusively pitch-based composition (of the doctrinaire type): unless the listener has the feeling that there is material that is worked through ("processed", perhaps?), there will be a feeling of endless, non-hierarchical permutations so that finally it all starts to "sound the same", which has to be one of the most damning things to be said about any music.

[Quijote]

Originally Posted by ReinerTorheit

[...] There were medieval motets, written for the dedication ceremony of a cathedral - whose isorhythmic proportions mirrored the dome of the cathedral in question. But can you hear that? The answer is no.

No, indeed. Similar to Xenakis' glissandi based on graph plottings in Pithoprakta where he tries to convey "straight or curved architectural lines". Unless you were told beforehand about this intention there is no way you would have perceived it that way. But does it "work" anyway, musically? The answer to that is yes.
[You see that? He tried to make a "narrative curve" between the 'No' and the 'Yes' that open and close this posting. I told you, he's gone all "Einstein" on us. Ed.]

[Quijote]

Originally Posted by ReinerTorheit

[...] By the way, I don't agree with 'Zeitblom'.

OK, noted!

[Herzeleide]

Originally Posted by Zeitblom

Whatever the theoretical background Grisey's music is IMO among the most simply gorgeous written in the latter part of the 20th century.

Seconded!

I love Quatre chants pour franchir le seuil. Awesome vocal writing, beautiful and subtle shades of colour in the scoring (those steel pans!) and masterfully sustained moods which develop just perfectly over the entire work from this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdiGNtkh7ng

To the last movement, a curiously bright, surreal denoument to the supulchral penultimate movement, like an uneasy calm after a storm -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laU7ttzLwSM

[Kubalivre]

Originally Posted by ReinerTorheit

I really don't care how the notes have been arrived at - they exist only as notes, and have to be good as music.

Ah, yes! The notes exist only as notes...

... and that's exactly why you dismiss each and every product related to a certain theory. What does it matter that Grisey, to name specific names, is one of the most polished composers of the latter part of the 20th century? Nothing; you did well on turning off a piece of music spanning 40 minutes after the first two because you disagree with its premises... even though you admit the premises do not count.

[ReinerTorheit]

Originally Posted by Kubalivre

Ah, yes! The notes exist only as notes...

... and that's exactly why you dismiss each and every product related to a certain theory. What does it matter that Grisey, to name specific names, is one of the most polished composers of the latter part of the 20th century? Nothing; you did well on turning off a piece of music spanning 40 minutes after the first two because you disagree with its premises... even though you admit the premises do not count.

And crude bullying is the least likely way to persuade me to listen to your pet composer a second time.

By the way.

Learn some manners for once in your life.

[Kubalivre]

Yes, I'm such a bully for calling your bluff. How exactly did my "lack of manners" offend you? Was it when I said it made little sense judging not a piece, not a composer, but a whole aesthetic capable of incorporating a myriad of different approaches based on two minutes of music?

Or was it when I called you rude? Wait, that never happened.

You are free to dislike any composer or any piece you want, and I've always been consistent in voicing that stand. Now, if you feel the need to defend that position and your arguments come up short, expect people to come knocking.

Grisey isn't even anywhere near a "pet composer" for me. I even admitted that I wasn't very well acquainted with his output, which lead me to open this thread: I always leave BrightCecilia with more than I came with. Still, even if he was, there are pieces by "pet composers" of mine that I dislike. Even though I mostly adore their work, there are times where the passion they project into their music do not match with my personal criteria. On the flipside, there are pieces capable of surprising me, because they are from composers that I don't feel too much of a connection, yet I like them. Both are a-okay. Calling me rude because I disagree with you is not.

[ReinerTorheit]

I've often noted that those actively involved in contemporary music have no personal or social skills. Mostly they're charmless, shrill and hysterical.

Thanks for proving me right again.

[Kubalivre]

I've noticed that you've been watching the thread very closely: it's probably sitting in some tab in your browser and receiving a refresh every now and then, waiting for my reply. Coupled with your insistence and lack of substance, that says a lot.

Fellas, learn from my mistakes: do not feed the trolls.

[Scott Good]

Originally Posted by ReinerTorheit

I've often noted that those actively involved in contemporary music have no personal or social skills. Mostly they're charmless, shrill and hysterical.

Thanks for proving me right again.

Wow, Reiner. This is very obtuse and rude.

Is insult the only way you can defend your position? This is nothing but admission of a weak idea.