Mahler's 3rd Symphony

[haydnguy]

A thread for the 3rd Symphony.

I have Horenstein with the London Symphony Orchestra.


(I haven't quite finished the second yet.)

[Chi_town/Philly]

Speaking for myself... I feel that Mahler's 3rd is the most challenging opus in the Mahler canon, but really- 2 weeks without a reply?!

For shame.

As for me, I began with the Solti/CSO rendition, and then had a re-try with Boulez & the New York Philharmonic. I prefer the latter.

Now (willing to listen to another perspective, and lapsing into Ben Stein deadpan)... somebody.... anybody....

[Herzeleide]

I much prefer the third to the second. I wrote about the third in my essay on Mahler:

Mahler’s third symphony represents a logical progression from its predecessor, insofar as it now reaches and equilibrium with the addition of another movement, making a total number of movements of six. In contrast to his second and, indeed, first symphony, the third’s conception was that it should express extroversion and jouissance. Assuming a narrative connection between the second and third symphonies (which we are explicitly invited to do so by Mahler himself) the latter is an elaboration of the light and gaiety signalled by the resurrection at the end of the second symphony.

In actuality, as in most of Mahler’s music, it is not that simple. Despite Mahler’s description of the symphony in relation to its predecessor, like the second symphony it starts with a saturnine march, preceded by a horn melody that quotes verbatim a song of protest that would have been recognised by Austrians of Mahler’s generation, class and education. Whilst it would be otiose to describe the radix of this melody itself, for listeners at the time, if they did not consciously know its source, the melody at least would have been loaded with reference and allusion for them. Following this is a series of chords that will form the basis of the fourth movement. The forgoing elements constitute the introduction or prelude to the exposition of what is a very large-scale sonata-form movement (though the horn melody recrudesces in different guises to the extent that it can be considered as having structural prominence). Contrary to classical or text-book sonata form, the exposition features a plenitude of motifs, with the usual contrast effected by the contrasting choice of key. It is in D minor that the menacing march begins, presenting a number of motifs, the main one of which is spun out to form the salient melody, given to the horns and later trombones. The division between the introduction and the march, and the march and what could be considered the secondary group of motifs, is a near-imperceptible timpani figure thought of –given the philosophical ideas behind the music and clues given by Mahler himself- as representing Pan sleeping. The secondary material provides relief from the ‘heavy and oppressive’ (schwer und dumpf) march with light and pellucidly-scored music in an auspicious major tonality. A solo oboe presents the melody which is thence taken up by the violin in the major key a semitone higher – D major. The tonality of the music then returns to D flat major, producing music of great ebullience. This oscillation between two distantly-related keys affords the music an other-worldly feeling.

Following this, both the primary and secondary groups of motifs are recapitulated in extended and developed form, especially the secondary group, wherein the exposition ends and the exuberant secondary material is used to launch into the development, at which point ‘summer marches in’. The movement ultimately concludes in the relative major of D minor: F major.

The second movement (‘What the flowers in the meadow tell me’) is a curious amalgamation of characteristics of a minuet and scherzo. Its form is A-B-A-B-A (though with subtle variations each time) wherein a subdivision can be made of A: a-b-a, and of B: a-b-c. Mahler’s innovative juxtaposition of musical character and form may be explained from a programmatically or poetically inspired point of view; the nature of a minuet befits what Mahler himself described as hitherto the most carefree music he had written, in its depiction of flowers, whilst the somewhat frantic and rumbustious nature of a scherzo befits in the depiction of the flowers struggling to deal with a storm.

The next movement (‘What the animals in the forest tell me’) though roughly structured the same (apropos the large-scale or macro-level structure) as the second movement, was in actuality regarded by Mahler as being in rondo form (though in an expanded form). This is evinced by the title as is the fact that this movement constitutes the scherzo proper, thus extending the manifold parallels with the second symphony. The material that forms the A section (i.e. up to cue 4) is essentially an orchestral arrangement of one of Mahler’s Wunderhorn settings, The subject of the poem – the cuckoo- is evoked amongst other animals in music that develops to become more puckish and nightmarish, the only repose being two long posthorn solos that each form the B sections.

The fourth movement is a setting of a passage from Nietzsche’s Also Sprach Zarathustra. Its mood and words evoke a mysterious atmosphere, as though pernoctating in contemplation. This ruminative feeling is achieved by dint of mainly static harmony upon which chords or melodies that have a distinctly modal (most prominently Mixolydian, but also Lydian) flavour or a parallel major-minor mixture (demonstrating in a microcosm the inverse of the overall tonal scheme of the symphony) are superimposed.

The empyrean penultimate movement is a Wunderhorn setting for boys’ and women’s choir. Its mood is one of joyful naivety; the religious topic alluding most immediately to the second symphony, although curious in some respects. Firstly, the symphony theretofore has been ‘about’ nature; pagan gods were depicted, and words borrowed from the explicitly Anti-Christian Nietzsche. Such, it is to be believed, was the extent of Mahler’s pantheism and intellectual breadth and his idea that the symphony should be ‘like the world… all embracing’. The last movement (‘What love tells me’) is reverent and beatific; in rondo form structural prominence is given to a melodic turn, with great affective import.

[Chi_town/Philly]

I've always admired the energy behind posts like this:

Originally Posted by Herzeleide

I much prefer the third to the second.

Well, I asked for another prespective and I certainly got it. Now that's a minority opinion (switching from Stein to Seinfeld), not that there's anything wrong with that..

Originally Posted by Herzeleide

Mahler’s third symphony represents a logical progression from its predecessor, insofar as it now reaches and equilibrium with the addition of another movement, making a total number of movements of six.

I'm trying to understand... is it your assertion that the addition of an additional movement makes the piece a more balanced work than the 2nd?

Before I completely forget about Seinfeld quips...

Originally Posted by Herzeleide

The fourth movement is a setting of a passage from Nietzsche’s Also Sprach Zarathustra.

What Zarathustra passage is that?!

Before I go on, I should keep in mind Deryck Cooke's caution that I should tread with humility before the creative powers of someone who made possible such a vast sound-canvas as the Third. Having said that, I still can't quite admire its totality. The third is the one work that makes me feel (however briefly) a sense of sympathy for the early-20th centrury Philistines who programmed their Mahler one movement at a time.

A couple of final thoughts, contained in Michael Steinberg's Magnum Opus The Symphony:

"Mahler lived ambivalently in tradition, wanting to be a part of it and, in the words of his biographer Henry-Louis de La Grange, to "insult" it. The Third, the biggest of Mahler's symphonies as well as the most out of the ordinary in proportion and design, is the most massive of his insults."

[haydnguy]

Thank you for taking the time to post that, Herzeleide. As with your orginal post I'll be saving it and reading it many times. It really is appreciated.

[Philidor]

Herzeleide rocks. Apologies to Hayndguy for not doing my homework. I'm still one symphony behind, having detoured via the 6th. I'm here atm -- a young(ish) von Otter with an overexcited Rattle:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HpWDQsNJ3k"]YouTube - Mahler 2nd - Finale End - Simon Rattle/CBSO[/ame]

[Herzeleide]

Originally Posted by haydnguy

Thank you for taking the time to post that, Herzeleide. As with your orginal post I'll be saving it and reading it many times. It really is appreciated.

You're welcome. But it just involved copying and pasting.

The Nietzsche passage is the following:

O Mensch! Gib Acht!
Was spricht die tiefe Mitternacht?
"Ich schlief, ich schlief—,
aus tiefem Traum bin ich erwacht:—
Die Welt ist tief,
und tiefer als der Tag gedacht.
Tief ist ihr Weh—,
Lust—tiefer noch als Herzeleid.
Weh spricht: Vergeh!
Doch all' Lust will Ewigkeit—,
—will tiefe, tiefe Ewigkeit!"



O Man! Take heed!
What says the deep midnight?
"I slept, I slept—,
from a deep dream have I awoken:—
the world is deep,
and deeper than the day has thought.
Deep is its pain—,
joy—deeper still than heartache.
Pain says: Pass away!
But all joy
seeks eternity—,
—seeks deep, deep eternity!"

Known as 'Zarathustra's Roundelay' it appears twice in the book.

[Florestan]

Originally Posted by Chi_town/Philly

Speaking for myself... I feel that Mahler's 3rd is the most challenging opus in the Mahler canon, but really- 2 weeks without a reply?!

For shame.

As for me, I began with the Solti/CSO rendition, and then had a re-try with Boulez & the New York Philharmonic. I prefer the latter.

Now (willing to listen to another perspective, and lapsing into Ben Stein deadpan)... somebody.... anybody....

Sorry darling, I really have been incredibly busy.

But I will catch up when we get to 5 and 6. I've just got them in the wrong order.

[haydnguy]

Yeah, it's my bad. Will try to catch up tonight. Got it sitting right beside me.

[haydnguy]

To close the 3rd symphony out this "go round", I'll post an interesting quote from the book, "Mahler: His Life, Work & World" by Kurt Blaukopf and Herta Blaukopf. (ISBN: 0-500-28197-1)


This is quoting Natalie Bauer-Lechner:

"Coming straight from his work, all emotional and excited, Mahler said to me while we were taking a walk: 'That was how I cut the Gordian knot, by the idea of introducing language and human voices into my Second Symphony, where I needed them to make myself understood. A pity I didn't have this in my First! However, I shan't hesitate in the Third, I shall use two poems from Des Knaben Wunderhorn and a glorious poem by Nietzsche as the basis for the songs in the short movements.

'"Summer comes in" will be the prologue. For this I need a military band, to achieve the crude effect of the arrival of my martial hero. It will really be as if the garrison band were marching in. You get a rabble hanging around at such a time which you never catch sight of otherwise.

'Naturally, there has to be a struggle with the adversary, Winter; but he is easily vanquished, and Summer, in the fullness of power, gains the undisputed mastery. This movement, as introduction, will be kept humerous, even grotesque.

'The titles of the consecutive parts of the Third will be:

1. Summer marches in.
2. What the flowers in the meadow tell me.
3. What the creatures in the forest tell me.
4. What the night tells me (Mankind).
5. What the morning bells tell me (The Angels).
6. What love tells me.
7. What the Child tells me.
'The whole thing I shall call "My Joyous Science" - it is that, too!"

***Note (included in the book): Contrary to this synopsis, the Third Symphony contains only six movement, and the titles have been altered.